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strategy for 1.2.x, master, PEP8 changes

Eric Firing
All,

I think we are in a messy situation, and we need to reach some agreement
as to how to proceed.  This has been discussed a bit in this thread:

http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=507AFDC6.8000801%40hawaii.edu&forum_name=matplotlib-devel

The name of that thread did not reflect the importance of the discussion
it prompted, hence the present message.

To summarize my view:

1) We have a flood of PEP8 PRs based on master, many of which have been
merged, some by myself--so I have no objection to this aspect of the
situation, though I would have preferred a slower pace, a garden hose
rather than a fire hose.  I am happy to see continued merging of these
PRs into master.

2) We are also trying to stabilize v1.2.x, getting in the last few bug
fixes and doc updates, so we can get a release out, with a high
probability that it will be solid.

3) The potential disagreement is over whether the PEP8 changes should be
cherry-picked into v1.2.x, or simply left in master.  I favor the latter
course.  First, because massive code churn shortly before a release
seems unwise.  Second, because I think we should stick to the strategy
we started with, in which an effort is made to choose the most
appropriate target for each PR, frequently merge the maintenance branch
into master, and reserve cherry-picking for occasional corrections.

4) The PEP8 changes will cause some merge problems no matter what we do;
but I think that they can be minimal and manageable if we leave PEP8 out
of v1.2.x, and decide that once it is released, v1.2.x will be changed
only if critical bugs are found, requiring a v1.2.1 release. This also
assumes that we have only a few changes left to be made in v1.2.x before
a final rc and a release.

Therefore I recommend that the PEP8 changes that have already been
cherry-picked into v1.2.x be removed from v1.2.x, and that the v1.2.x
milestone be removed from all PEP8 changes.

If some of the PEP8 commits include genuine bug-fixes that need to be in
v1.2.x, then these fixes should be made via PRs directly against v1.2.x.

Agreement?  Disagreement?  Discussion?  Related aspects of strategy?

Eric

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Re: strategy for 1.2.x, master, PEP8 changes

Damon McDougall
On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Eric Firing <[hidden email]> wrote:

> All,
>
> I think we are in a messy situation, and we need to reach some agreement
> as to how to proceed.  This has been discussed a bit in this thread:
>
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=507AFDC6.8000801%40hawaii.edu&forum_name=matplotlib-devel
>
> The name of that thread did not reflect the importance of the discussion
> it prompted, hence the present message.
>
> To summarize my view:
>
> 1) We have a flood of PEP8 PRs based on master, many of which have been
> merged, some by myself--so I have no objection to this aspect of the
> situation, though I would have preferred a slower pace, a garden hose
> rather than a fire hose.  I am happy to see continued merging of these
> PRs into master.
>
> 2) We are also trying to stabilize v1.2.x, getting in the last few bug
> fixes and doc updates, so we can get a release out, with a high
> probability that it will be solid.
>
> 3) The potential disagreement is over whether the PEP8 changes should be
> cherry-picked into v1.2.x, or simply left in master.  I favor the latter
> course.  First, because massive code churn shortly before a release
> seems unwise.  Second, because I think we should stick to the strategy
> we started with, in which an effort is made to choose the most
> appropriate target for each PR, frequently merge the maintenance branch
> into master, and reserve cherry-picking for occasional corrections.
>
> 4) The PEP8 changes will cause some merge problems no matter what we do;
> but I think that they can be minimal and manageable if we leave PEP8 out
> of v1.2.x, and decide that once it is released, v1.2.x will be changed
> only if critical bugs are found, requiring a v1.2.1 release. This also
> assumes that we have only a few changes left to be made in v1.2.x before
> a final rc and a release.
>
> Therefore I recommend that the PEP8 changes that have already been
> cherry-picked into v1.2.x be removed from v1.2.x, and that the v1.2.x
> milestone be removed from all PEP8 changes.
>
> If some of the PEP8 commits include genuine bug-fixes that need to be in
> v1.2.x, then these fixes should be made via PRs directly against v1.2.x.
>
> Agreement?  Disagreement?  Discussion?  Related aspects of strategy?
>
> Eric

I'm happy with whatever is decided. I'd rather not have merge
conflicts, but if PEP8 is seen as a high-risk merge then I'm happy to
not cherry-pick them into 1.2.x.

If it is decided that we are to revert all the PEP8 changes in 1.2.x,
what should be done about PEP8 changes that were merged into master
before the v1.2.x branch was created?

--
Damon McDougall
http://www.damon-is-a-geek.com
B2.39
Mathematics Institute
University of Warwick
Coventry
West Midlands
CV4 7AL
United Kingdom

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Re: strategy for 1.2.x, master, PEP8 changes

Thomas Kluyver-3
In reply to this post by Eric Firing
On 14 October 2012 21:22, Eric Firing <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 3) The potential disagreement is over whether the PEP8 changes should be
> cherry-picked into v1.2.x, or simply left in master.  I favor the latter
> course.

I'm not familiar with matplotlib's merge strategy, but I'd agree with
you that making those changes post-RC doesn't sound sensible. There's
always the chance of something getting broken, especially when diffs
get too big to review carefully.

Thomas

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Re: strategy for 1.2.x, master, PEP8 changes

Eric Firing
In reply to this post by Damon McDougall
On 2012/10/14 12:44 PM, Damon McDougall wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Eric Firing <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> All,
>>
>> I think we are in a messy situation, and we need to reach some agreement
>> as to how to proceed.  This has been discussed a bit in this thread:
>>
>> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=507AFDC6.8000801%40hawaii.edu&forum_name=matplotlib-devel
>>
>> The name of that thread did not reflect the importance of the discussion
>> it prompted, hence the present message.
>>
>> To summarize my view:
>>
>> 1) We have a flood of PEP8 PRs based on master, many of which have been
>> merged, some by myself--so I have no objection to this aspect of the
>> situation, though I would have preferred a slower pace, a garden hose
>> rather than a fire hose.  I am happy to see continued merging of these
>> PRs into master.
>>
>> 2) We are also trying to stabilize v1.2.x, getting in the last few bug
>> fixes and doc updates, so we can get a release out, with a high
>> probability that it will be solid.
>>
>> 3) The potential disagreement is over whether the PEP8 changes should be
>> cherry-picked into v1.2.x, or simply left in master.  I favor the latter
>> course.  First, because massive code churn shortly before a release
>> seems unwise.  Second, because I think we should stick to the strategy
>> we started with, in which an effort is made to choose the most
>> appropriate target for each PR, frequently merge the maintenance branch
>> into master, and reserve cherry-picking for occasional corrections.
>>
>> 4) The PEP8 changes will cause some merge problems no matter what we do;
>> but I think that they can be minimal and manageable if we leave PEP8 out
>> of v1.2.x, and decide that once it is released, v1.2.x will be changed
>> only if critical bugs are found, requiring a v1.2.1 release. This also
>> assumes that we have only a few changes left to be made in v1.2.x before
>> a final rc and a release.
>>
>> Therefore I recommend that the PEP8 changes that have already been
>> cherry-picked into v1.2.x be removed from v1.2.x, and that the v1.2.x
>> milestone be removed from all PEP8 changes.
>>
>> If some of the PEP8 commits include genuine bug-fixes that need to be in
>> v1.2.x, then these fixes should be made via PRs directly against v1.2.x.
>>
>> Agreement?  Disagreement?  Discussion?  Related aspects of strategy?
>>
>> Eric
>
> I'm happy with whatever is decided. I'd rather not have merge
> conflicts, but if PEP8 is seen as a high-risk merge then I'm happy to
> not cherry-pick them into 1.2.x.
>
> If it is decided that we are to revert all the PEP8 changes in 1.2.x,
> what should be done about PEP8 changes that were merged into master
> before the v1.2.x branch was created?
>

I didn't know there were any; but anything that far back should be left
alone, because subsequent things are based on it, and it has been
getting tested along the way during the rc cycle.  My concern is with
massive changes shortly before release, and about getting the release
over and done with so we can move on.

Eric


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Re: strategy for 1.2.x, master, PEP8 changes

Jae-Joon Lee
In reply to this post by Eric Firing
I'd agree with Eric on most of his points.

On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 5:22 AM, Eric Firing <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If some of the PEP8 commits include genuine bug-fixes that need to be in
> v1.2.x, then these fixes should be made via PRs directly against v1.2.x.

I think it is not a good idea to have a PR that mixes a bug-fix with a
PEP8 fix that is not related with the bug.
Maybe we need to ask for separate PRs, one for PEP8 fix and one for bug-fixes.

Regards,

-JJ

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Re: strategy for 1.2.x, master, PEP8 changes

Eric Firing
On 2012/10/14 4:49 PM, Jae-Joon Lee wrote:
> I'd agree with Eric on most of his points.
>
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 5:22 AM, Eric Firing <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> If some of the PEP8 commits include genuine bug-fixes that need to be in
>> v1.2.x, then these fixes should be made via PRs directly against v1.2.x.
>
> I think it is not a good idea to have a PR that mixes a bug-fix with a
> PEP8 fix that is not related with the bug.
> Maybe we need to ask for separate PRs, one for PEP8 fix and one for bug-fixes.

I think that has been the case; certainly it has been the general
intention.  I put in the remark you quoted in case there might have been
one or two small exceptions.

Eric

>
> Regards,
>
> -JJ
>


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Re: strategy for 1.2.x, master, PEP8 changes

Eric Firing
In reply to this post by Damon McDougall
On 2012/10/14 12:44 PM, Damon McDougall wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Eric Firing <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> All,
>>
>> I think we are in a messy situation, and we need to reach some agreement
>> as to how to proceed.  This has been discussed a bit in this thread:
>>
>> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=507AFDC6.8000801%40hawaii.edu&forum_name=matplotlib-devel
>>
>> The name of that thread did not reflect the importance of the discussion
>> it prompted, hence the present message.
>>
>> To summarize my view:
>>
>> 1) We have a flood of PEP8 PRs based on master, many of which have been
>> merged, some by myself--so I have no objection to this aspect of the
>> situation, though I would have preferred a slower pace, a garden hose
>> rather than a fire hose.  I am happy to see continued merging of these
>> PRs into master.
>>
>> 2) We are also trying to stabilize v1.2.x, getting in the last few bug
>> fixes and doc updates, so we can get a release out, with a high
>> probability that it will be solid.
>>
>> 3) The potential disagreement is over whether the PEP8 changes should be
>> cherry-picked into v1.2.x, or simply left in master.  I favor the latter
>> course.  First, because massive code churn shortly before a release
>> seems unwise.  Second, because I think we should stick to the strategy
>> we started with, in which an effort is made to choose the most
>> appropriate target for each PR, frequently merge the maintenance branch
>> into master, and reserve cherry-picking for occasional corrections.
>>
>> 4) The PEP8 changes will cause some merge problems no matter what we do;
>> but I think that they can be minimal and manageable if we leave PEP8 out
>> of v1.2.x, and decide that once it is released, v1.2.x will be changed
>> only if critical bugs are found, requiring a v1.2.1 release. This also
>> assumes that we have only a few changes left to be made in v1.2.x before
>> a final rc and a release.
>>
>> Therefore I recommend that the PEP8 changes that have already been
>> cherry-picked into v1.2.x be removed from v1.2.x, and that the v1.2.x
>> milestone be removed from all PEP8 changes.
>>
>> If some of the PEP8 commits include genuine bug-fixes that need to be in
>> v1.2.x, then these fixes should be made via PRs directly against v1.2.x.
>>
>> Agreement?  Disagreement?  Discussion?  Related aspects of strategy?
>>
>> Eric
>
> I'm happy with whatever is decided. I'd rather not have merge
> conflicts, but if PEP8 is seen as a high-risk merge then I'm happy to
> not cherry-pick them into 1.2.x.
>
> If it is decided that we are to revert all the PEP8 changes in 1.2.x,
> what should be done about PEP8 changes that were merged into master
> before the v1.2.x branch was created?
>

Damon,

As I said, I would not advocate trying to back out everything, and maybe
not any of what is already in 1.2.x, or maybe just the most recent
bunch.  Anticipating that Mike D. might want to make a decision tomorrow
(or today from your timezone), perhaps it would be helpful if you could
make an approximate map of which PEP8 commits were cherry-picked to
1.2.x, and how recently?  I have been trying to figure this out with
qgit and git log with various options, but it makes my head spin.

Thanks.

Eric

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Re: strategy for 1.2.x, master, PEP8 changes

Nelle Varoquaux


On 15 October 2012 06:10, Eric Firing <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2012/10/14 12:44 PM, Damon McDougall wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Eric Firing <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> All,
>>
>> I think we are in a messy situation, and we need to reach some agreement
>> as to how to proceed.  This has been discussed a bit in this thread:
>>
>> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=507AFDC6.8000801%40hawaii.edu&forum_name=matplotlib-devel
>>
>> The name of that thread did not reflect the importance of the discussion
>> it prompted, hence the present message.
>>
>> To summarize my view:
>>
>> 1) We have a flood of PEP8 PRs based on master, many of which have been
>> merged, some by myself--so I have no objection to this aspect of the
>> situation, though I would have preferred a slower pace, a garden hose
>> rather than a fire hose.  I am happy to see continued merging of these
>> PRs into master.
>>
>> 2) We are also trying to stabilize v1.2.x, getting in the last few bug
>> fixes and doc updates, so we can get a release out, with a high
>> probability that it will be solid.
>>
>> 3) The potential disagreement is over whether the PEP8 changes should be
>> cherry-picked into v1.2.x, or simply left in master.  I favor the latter
>> course.  First, because massive code churn shortly before a release
>> seems unwise.  Second, because I think we should stick to the strategy
>> we started with, in which an effort is made to choose the most
>> appropriate target for each PR, frequently merge the maintenance branch
>> into master, and reserve cherry-picking for occasional corrections.
>>
>> 4) The PEP8 changes will cause some merge problems no matter what we do;
>> but I think that they can be minimal and manageable if we leave PEP8 out
>> of v1.2.x, and decide that once it is released, v1.2.x will be changed
>> only if critical bugs are found, requiring a v1.2.1 release. This also
>> assumes that we have only a few changes left to be made in v1.2.x before
>> a final rc and a release.
>>
>> Therefore I recommend that the PEP8 changes that have already been
>> cherry-picked into v1.2.x be removed from v1.2.x, and that the v1.2.x
>> milestone be removed from all PEP8 changes.
>>
>> If some of the PEP8 commits include genuine bug-fixes that need to be in
>> v1.2.x, then these fixes should be made via PRs directly against v1.2.x.
>>
>> Agreement?  Disagreement?  Discussion?  Related aspects of strategy?
>>
>> Eric
>
> I'm happy with whatever is decided. I'd rather not have merge
> conflicts, but if PEP8 is seen as a high-risk merge then I'm happy to
> not cherry-pick them into 1.2.x.
>
> If it is decided that we are to revert all the PEP8 changes in 1.2.x,
> what should be done about PEP8 changes that were merged into master
> before the v1.2.x branch was created?
>

Damon,

As I said, I would not advocate trying to back out everything, and maybe
not any of what is already in 1.2.x, or maybe just the most recent
bunch.  Anticipating that Mike D. might want to make a decision tomorrow
(or today from your timezone), perhaps it would be helpful if you could
make an approximate map of which PEP8 commits were cherry-picked to
1.2.x, and how recently?  I have been trying to figure this out with
qgit and git log with various options, but it makes my head spin.

List of commits that were cherry-picked recently (names only, but I can do the commit id as well):

PEP8 fixes on blocking_input.py
PEP8 fixes on blocking_input (patch n°2)
PEP_ fixes on cbook.py
PEP8 fixes 2. => 2.0
PEP8 fixes on tight_bbox.py
PEP8 fixes on tight_layout.py
PEP8 fixes - break points and identation
PEP8 fixes on type1font.py
PEP8 fixes - small backslashes and breaks fixes
PEP8 fixes on transforms.py
FIX - travis-ci is failing
Fix typo in transforms.py
PEP8 fixes on scale.py
PEP8 fixes on legend.py
PEP8 fixes on ticker.py
PEP8 fixes on streamplot.py
PEP8 fixes on stackplot.py
PEP8 fixes on hatch.py
PEP8 fixes on table.py

Thanks,
N
 

Thanks.

Eric

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Re: strategy for 1.2.x, master, PEP8 changes

Nelle Varoquaux
In reply to this post by Jae-Joon Lee


On 15 October 2012 04:49, Jae-Joon Lee <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'd agree with Eric on most of his points.

On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 5:22 AM, Eric Firing <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If some of the PEP8 commits include genuine bug-fixes that need to be in
> v1.2.x, then these fixes should be made via PRs directly against v1.2.x.

I think it is not a good idea to have a PR that mixes a bug-fix with a
PEP8 fix that is not related with the bug.
Maybe we need to ask for separate PRs, one for PEP8 fix and one for bug-fixes.

I usually add a FIXME note in the code. I wouldn't rush those bug fixes, as they often have been there for a long time and corresponds to code that just would not run (hence, code that isn't tested).
 

Regards,

-JJ

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Re: strategy for 1.2.x, master, PEP8 changes

Damon McDougall
In reply to this post by Nelle Varoquaux
On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Nelle Varoquaux
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On 15 October 2012 06:10, Eric Firing <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 2012/10/14 12:44 PM, Damon McDougall wrote:
>> > On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Eric Firing <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> All,
>> >>
>> >> I think we are in a messy situation, and we need to reach some
>> >> agreement
>> >> as to how to proceed.  This has been discussed a bit in this thread:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=507AFDC6.8000801%40hawaii.edu&forum_name=matplotlib-devel
>> >>
>> >> The name of that thread did not reflect the importance of the
>> >> discussion
>> >> it prompted, hence the present message.
>> >>
>> >> To summarize my view:
>> >>
>> >> 1) We have a flood of PEP8 PRs based on master, many of which have been
>> >> merged, some by myself--so I have no objection to this aspect of the
>> >> situation, though I would have preferred a slower pace, a garden hose
>> >> rather than a fire hose.  I am happy to see continued merging of these
>> >> PRs into master.
>> >>
>> >> 2) We are also trying to stabilize v1.2.x, getting in the last few bug
>> >> fixes and doc updates, so we can get a release out, with a high
>> >> probability that it will be solid.
>> >>
>> >> 3) The potential disagreement is over whether the PEP8 changes should
>> >> be
>> >> cherry-picked into v1.2.x, or simply left in master.  I favor the
>> >> latter
>> >> course.  First, because massive code churn shortly before a release
>> >> seems unwise.  Second, because I think we should stick to the strategy
>> >> we started with, in which an effort is made to choose the most
>> >> appropriate target for each PR, frequently merge the maintenance branch
>> >> into master, and reserve cherry-picking for occasional corrections.
>> >>
>> >> 4) The PEP8 changes will cause some merge problems no matter what we
>> >> do;
>> >> but I think that they can be minimal and manageable if we leave PEP8
>> >> out
>> >> of v1.2.x, and decide that once it is released, v1.2.x will be changed
>> >> only if critical bugs are found, requiring a v1.2.1 release. This also
>> >> assumes that we have only a few changes left to be made in v1.2.x
>> >> before
>> >> a final rc and a release.
>> >>
>> >> Therefore I recommend that the PEP8 changes that have already been
>> >> cherry-picked into v1.2.x be removed from v1.2.x, and that the v1.2.x
>> >> milestone be removed from all PEP8 changes.
>> >>
>> >> If some of the PEP8 commits include genuine bug-fixes that need to be
>> >> in
>> >> v1.2.x, then these fixes should be made via PRs directly against
>> >> v1.2.x.
>> >>
>> >> Agreement?  Disagreement?  Discussion?  Related aspects of strategy?
>> >>
>> >> Eric
>> >
>> > I'm happy with whatever is decided. I'd rather not have merge
>> > conflicts, but if PEP8 is seen as a high-risk merge then I'm happy to
>> > not cherry-pick them into 1.2.x.
>> >
>> > If it is decided that we are to revert all the PEP8 changes in 1.2.x,
>> > what should be done about PEP8 changes that were merged into master
>> > before the v1.2.x branch was created?
>> >
>>
>> Damon,
>>
>> As I said, I would not advocate trying to back out everything, and maybe
>> not any of what is already in 1.2.x, or maybe just the most recent
>> bunch.  Anticipating that Mike D. might want to make a decision tomorrow
>> (or today from your timezone), perhaps it would be helpful if you could
>> make an approximate map of which PEP8 commits were cherry-picked to
>> 1.2.x, and how recently?  I have been trying to figure this out with
>> qgit and git log with various options, but it makes my head spin.
>
>
> List of commits that were cherry-picked recently (names only, but I can do
> the commit id as well):
>
> PEP8 fixes on blocking_input.py
> PEP8 fixes on blocking_input (patch n°2)
> PEP_ fixes on cbook.py
> PEP8 fixes 2. => 2.0
> PEP8 fixes on tight_bbox.py
> PEP8 fixes on tight_layout.py
> PEP8 fixes - break points and identation
> PEP8 fixes on type1font.py
> PEP8 fixes - small backslashes and breaks fixes
> PEP8 fixes on transforms.py
> FIX - travis-ci is failing
> Fix typo in transforms.py
> PEP8 fixes on scale.py
> PEP8 fixes on legend.py
> PEP8 fixes on ticker.py
> PEP8 fixes on streamplot.py
> PEP8 fixes on stackplot.py
> PEP8 fixes on hatch.py
> PEP8 fixes on table.py

Thanks Nelle.

Eric, is the list Nelle has provided what you were expecting?

--
Damon McDougall
http://www.damon-is-a-geek.com
B2.39
Mathematics Institute
University of Warwick
Coventry
West Midlands
CV4 7AL
United Kingdom

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Re: strategy for 1.2.x, master, PEP8 changes

Benjamin Root-2
In reply to this post by Nelle Varoquaux


On Monday, October 15, 2012, Nelle Varoquaux wrote:


On 15 October 2012 04:49, Jae-Joon Lee <<a href="javascript:_e({}, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;lee.j.joon@gmail.com&#39;);" target="_blank">lee.j.joon@...> wrote:
I'd agree with Eric on most of his points.

On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 5:22 AM, Eric Firing <<a href="javascript:_e({}, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;efiring@hawaii.edu&#39;);" target="_blank">efiring@...> wrote:
> If some of the PEP8 commits include genuine bug-fixes that need to be in
> v1.2.x, then these fixes should be made via PRs directly against v1.2.x.

I think it is not a good idea to have a PR that mixes a bug-fix with a
PEP8 fix that is not related with the bug.
Maybe we need to ask for separate PRs, one for PEP8 fix and one for bug-fixes.

I usually add a FIXME note in the code. I wouldn't rush those bug fixes, as they often have been there for a long time and corresponds to code that just would not run (hence, code that isn't tested).
 

Nelle, let me just take a moment to thank you for all the PEP8 work you have done.  At first I was fine with these PRs being in v1.2.x, but now that some ports are being removed, perhaps it is best for these to all go into master.

Cheers!
Ben Root

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Re: strategy for 1.2.x, master, PEP8 changes

Phil Elson-2
In reply to this post by Damon McDougall
Firstly, I think you are right to bring this up Eric, we should all agree what the best course is to take, and then all work together to get us there with the least amount of disruption possible.

> if we leave PEP8 out of v1.2.x, and decide that once it is released, v1.2.x will be changed
> only if critical bugs are found, requiring a v1.2.1 release

I agree. I think it is important here to be very clear about what constitutes a "critical bug". In my opinion, releasing a v1.2.1 would be a very last resort and I would sooner see us move forward by fixing bugs in a new feature release (1.3). In order to do this we should have a schedule for our next release *now*, and ideally it shouldn't be that far away (i.e. no longer than 8-9 months). Some of my reasons for this assertion include:
  1. We have an amazing community of people who help us build our release bundles - so the actual release deployment mechanisms are no longer a limiting factor
  2. We have a long period between identification of features, their implementation and then seeing those features available in the latest release to our users. I would love to see that time shorten to share some of the cool new features that are being developed with non-developers sooner so that we can get feedback and go through the development cycle quicker.
  3. Currently making a release is a massive task which takes many developers out of actually being able to focus on new features or bugfixes. Having a quicker release cycle should mean we have fewer large changes per release and reduce the need we currently have to squeeze as much as we can into the next release - ultimately I think it will mean that we need to expend fewer developer hours focused on release management and last minute code reviewing.

This is not intended to be a criticism of our current system, simply an observation that I think could help us to be more responsive and agile in the future. If anybody wants to share their experiences with other development methodologies I would love to hear about them (I guess if it is not strictly related to this thread, then perhaps we should start up a new conversation on the mailing list).

In short, provided we can agree a future matplotlib version schedule, I agree with Eric. In terms of reverting the already cherry picked commits, I am less sure. My heart is telling me to draw a line in the sand, accept what is on the v1.2.x branch currently, and accept the suggested approach for all future commits.

Finally, I agree with Ben. This is not a criticism of Nelle's PEP8 pull requests, or of Damon and other's hard work in reviewing and merging them, it is simply that we should agree the best course to get the best possible release of v1.2.0 without dragging it out long beyond our original schedule.

Cheers,

Phil





On 15 October 2012 09:08, Damon McDougall <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Nelle Varoquaux
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 15 October 2012 06:10, Eric Firing <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2012/10/14 12:44 PM, Damon McDougall wrote:
>>> > On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Eric Firing <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >> All,
>>> >>
>>> >> I think we are in a messy situation, and we need to reach some
>>> >> agreement
>>> >> as to how to proceed.  This has been discussed a bit in this thread:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=507AFDC6.8000801%40hawaii.edu&forum_name=matplotlib-devel
>>> >>
>>> >> The name of that thread did not reflect the importance of the
>>> >> discussion
>>> >> it prompted, hence the present message.
>>> >>
>>> >> To summarize my view:
>>> >>
>>> >> 1) We have a flood of PEP8 PRs based on master, many of which have been
>>> >> merged, some by myself--so I have no objection to this aspect of the
>>> >> situation, though I would have preferred a slower pace, a garden hose
>>> >> rather than a fire hose.  I am happy to see continued merging of these
>>> >> PRs into master.
>>> >>
>>> >> 2) We are also trying to stabilize v1.2.x, getting in the last few bug
>>> >> fixes and doc updates, so we can get a release out, with a high
>>> >> probability that it will be solid.
>>> >>
>>> >> 3) The potential disagreement is over whether the PEP8 changes should
>>> >> be
>>> >> cherry-picked into v1.2.x, or simply left in master.  I favor the
>>> >> latter
>>> >> course.  First, because massive code churn shortly before a release
>>> >> seems unwise.  Second, because I think we should stick to the strategy
>>> >> we started with, in which an effort is made to choose the most
>>> >> appropriate target for each PR, frequently merge the maintenance branch
>>> >> into master, and reserve cherry-picking for occasional corrections.
>>> >>
>>> >> 4) The PEP8 changes will cause some merge problems no matter what we
>>> >> do;
>>> >> but I think that they can be minimal and manageable if we leave PEP8
>>> >> out
>>> >> of v1.2.x, and decide that once it is released, v1.2.x will be changed
>>> >> only if critical bugs are found, requiring a v1.2.1 release. This also
>>> >> assumes that we have only a few changes left to be made in v1.2.x
>>> >> before
>>> >> a final rc and a release.
>>> >>
>>> >> Therefore I recommend that the PEP8 changes that have already been
>>> >> cherry-picked into v1.2.x be removed from v1.2.x, and that the v1.2.x
>>> >> milestone be removed from all PEP8 changes.
>>> >>
>>> >> If some of the PEP8 commits include genuine bug-fixes that need to be
>>> >> in
>>> >> v1.2.x, then these fixes should be made via PRs directly against
>>> >> v1.2.x.
>>> >>
>>> >> Agreement?  Disagreement?  Discussion?  Related aspects of strategy?
>>> >>
>>> >> Eric
>>> >
>>> > I'm happy with whatever is decided. I'd rather not have merge
>>> > conflicts, but if PEP8 is seen as a high-risk merge then I'm happy to
>>> > not cherry-pick them into 1.2.x.
>>> >
>>> > If it is decided that we are to revert all the PEP8 changes in 1.2.x,
>>> > what should be done about PEP8 changes that were merged into master
>>> > before the v1.2.x branch was created?
>>> >
>>>
>>> Damon,
>>>
>>> As I said, I would not advocate trying to back out everything, and maybe
>>> not any of what is already in 1.2.x, or maybe just the most recent
>>> bunch.  Anticipating that Mike D. might want to make a decision tomorrow
>>> (or today from your timezone), perhaps it would be helpful if you could
>>> make an approximate map of which PEP8 commits were cherry-picked to
>>> 1.2.x, and how recently?  I have been trying to figure this out with
>>> qgit and git log with various options, but it makes my head spin.
>>
>>
>> List of commits that were cherry-picked recently (names only, but I can do
>> the commit id as well):
>>
>> PEP8 fixes on blocking_input.py
>> PEP8 fixes on blocking_input (patch n°2)
>> PEP_ fixes on cbook.py
>> PEP8 fixes 2. => 2.0
>> PEP8 fixes on tight_bbox.py
>> PEP8 fixes on tight_layout.py
>> PEP8 fixes - break points and identation
>> PEP8 fixes on type1font.py
>> PEP8 fixes - small backslashes and breaks fixes
>> PEP8 fixes on transforms.py
>> FIX - travis-ci is failing
>> Fix typo in transforms.py
>> PEP8 fixes on scale.py
>> PEP8 fixes on legend.py
>> PEP8 fixes on ticker.py
>> PEP8 fixes on streamplot.py
>> PEP8 fixes on stackplot.py
>> PEP8 fixes on hatch.py
>> PEP8 fixes on table.py
>
> Thanks Nelle.
>
> Eric, is the list Nelle has provided what you were expecting?
>
> --
> Damon McDougall
> http://www.damon-is-a-geek.com
> B2.39
> Mathematics Institute
> University of Warwick
> Coventry
> West Midlands
> CV4 7AL
> United Kingdom
>
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Re: strategy for 1.2.x, master, PEP8 changes

Michael Droettboom-3
In reply to this post by Eric Firing
Sorry to be jumping in on this late -- I didn't have a chance to catch
up with this over the weekend.

I think I generally side with Eric here -- the rc candidate cycle is
intended to be quite conservative.  Nelle's pull requests are very
welcome improvements, but they are also quite large and I am concerned
about breakage slipping through the cracks.  To the extent that Nelle is
finding undefined variable bugs etc. with her tool, I think we should
probably try and fix those -- I know we've been doing that already and
that's great.

I think we should take the 1.2.x milestone off of all of the PEP8
changes and keep all of them on master going forward.  Yes, the merging
may be difficult while we are still in maintaining 1.2.x, but I think
that's trivial compared to all of the additional testing and push back
of the 1.2.0 release that this is currently causing.

As for backing out things that were already cherry-picked -- that's a
tough call.  I don't want to exacerbate the situation by causing further
risk.  Maybe we just back out everything since the rc2?

Mike

On 10/15/2012 12:10 AM, Eric Firing wrote:

> On 2012/10/14 12:44 PM, Damon McDougall wrote:
>> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Eric Firing <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> All,
>>>
>>> I think we are in a messy situation, and we need to reach some agreement
>>> as to how to proceed.  This has been discussed a bit in this thread:
>>>
>>> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=507AFDC6.8000801%40hawaii.edu&forum_name=matplotlib-devel
>>>
>>> The name of that thread did not reflect the importance of the discussion
>>> it prompted, hence the present message.
>>>
>>> To summarize my view:
>>>
>>> 1) We have a flood of PEP8 PRs based on master, many of which have been
>>> merged, some by myself--so I have no objection to this aspect of the
>>> situation, though I would have preferred a slower pace, a garden hose
>>> rather than a fire hose.  I am happy to see continued merging of these
>>> PRs into master.
>>>
>>> 2) We are also trying to stabilize v1.2.x, getting in the last few bug
>>> fixes and doc updates, so we can get a release out, with a high
>>> probability that it will be solid.
>>>
>>> 3) The potential disagreement is over whether the PEP8 changes should be
>>> cherry-picked into v1.2.x, or simply left in master.  I favor the latter
>>> course.  First, because massive code churn shortly before a release
>>> seems unwise.  Second, because I think we should stick to the strategy
>>> we started with, in which an effort is made to choose the most
>>> appropriate target for each PR, frequently merge the maintenance branch
>>> into master, and reserve cherry-picking for occasional corrections.
>>>
>>> 4) The PEP8 changes will cause some merge problems no matter what we do;
>>> but I think that they can be minimal and manageable if we leave PEP8 out
>>> of v1.2.x, and decide that once it is released, v1.2.x will be changed
>>> only if critical bugs are found, requiring a v1.2.1 release. This also
>>> assumes that we have only a few changes left to be made in v1.2.x before
>>> a final rc and a release.
>>>
>>> Therefore I recommend that the PEP8 changes that have already been
>>> cherry-picked into v1.2.x be removed from v1.2.x, and that the v1.2.x
>>> milestone be removed from all PEP8 changes.
>>>
>>> If some of the PEP8 commits include genuine bug-fixes that need to be in
>>> v1.2.x, then these fixes should be made via PRs directly against v1.2.x.
>>>
>>> Agreement?  Disagreement?  Discussion?  Related aspects of strategy?
>>>
>>> Eric
>> I'm happy with whatever is decided. I'd rather not have merge
>> conflicts, but if PEP8 is seen as a high-risk merge then I'm happy to
>> not cherry-pick them into 1.2.x.
>>
>> If it is decided that we are to revert all the PEP8 changes in 1.2.x,
>> what should be done about PEP8 changes that were merged into master
>> before the v1.2.x branch was created?
>>
> Damon,
>
> As I said, I would not advocate trying to back out everything, and maybe
> not any of what is already in 1.2.x, or maybe just the most recent
> bunch.  Anticipating that Mike D. might want to make a decision tomorrow
> (or today from your timezone), perhaps it would be helpful if you could
> make an approximate map of which PEP8 commits were cherry-picked to
> 1.2.x, and how recently?  I have been trying to figure this out with
> qgit and git log with various options, but it makes my head spin.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Eric
>
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Re: strategy for 1.2.x, master, PEP8 changes

Michael Droettboom-3
In reply to this post by Phil Elson-2
On 10/15/2012 08:11 AM, Phil Elson wrote:
Firstly, I think you are right to bring this up Eric, we should all agree what the best course is to take, and then all work together to get us there with the least amount of disruption possible.

> if we leave PEP8 out of v1.2.x, and decide that once it is released, v1.2.x will be changed
> only if critical bugs are found, requiring a v1.2.1 release

I agree. I think it is important here to be very clear about what constitutes a "critical bug". In my opinion, releasing a v1.2.1 would be a very last resort and I would sooner see us move forward by fixing bugs in a new feature release (1.3). In order to do this we should have a schedule for our next release *now*, and ideally it shouldn't be that far away (i.e. no longer than 8-9 months). Some of my reasons for this assertion include:
  1. We have an amazing community of people who help us build our release bundles - so the actual release deployment mechanisms are no longer a limiting factor
  2. We have a long period between identification of features, their implementation and then seeing those features available in the latest release to our users. I would love to see that time shorten to share some of the cool new features that are being developed with non-developers sooner so that we can get feedback and go through the development cycle quicker.
  3. Currently making a release is a massive task which takes many developers out of actually being able to focus on new features or bugfixes. Having a quicker release cycle should mean we have fewer large changes per release and reduce the need we currently have to squeeze as much as we can into the next release - ultimately I think it will mean that we need to expend fewer developer hours focused on release management and last minute code reviewing.

I think a perennial problem has simply been keeping up with the firehose of bugs, and we've been doing a lot of very impressive catch-up during this release cycle.

I'm not sure that more frequent releases is necessarily the answer.  The amount of work doesn't decrease -- it's just becomes less "bursty".

We also have the (not unique to us problem) that a key platform for users (Windows) is not well-represented in the set of developers, and the release candidates are always helpful for ferretting out those bugs that don't get discovered in the normal course of things.

Mike

This is not intended to be a criticism of our current system, simply an observation that I think could help us to be more responsive and agile in the future. If anybody wants to share their experiences with other development methodologies I would love to hear about them (I guess if it is not strictly related to this thread, then perhaps we should start up a new conversation on the mailing list).

In short, provided we can agree a future matplotlib version schedule, I agree with Eric. In terms of reverting the already cherry picked commits, I am less sure. My heart is telling me to draw a line in the sand, accept what is on the v1.2.x branch currently, and accept the suggested approach for all future commits.

Finally, I agree with Ben. This is not a criticism of Nelle's PEP8 pull requests, or of Damon and other's hard work in reviewing and merging them, it is simply that we should agree the best course to get the best possible release of v1.2.0 without dragging it out long beyond our original schedule.

Cheers,

Phil





On 15 October 2012 09:08, Damon McDougall <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Nelle Varoquaux
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 15 October 2012 06:10, Eric Firing <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2012/10/14 12:44 PM, Damon McDougall wrote:
>>> > On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Eric Firing <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >> All,
>>> >>
>>> >> I think we are in a messy situation, and we need to reach some
>>> >> agreement
>>> >> as to how to proceed.  This has been discussed a bit in this thread:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=507AFDC6.8000801%40hawaii.edu&forum_name=matplotlib-devel
>>> >>
>>> >> The name of that thread did not reflect the importance of the
>>> >> discussion
>>> >> it prompted, hence the present message.
>>> >>
>>> >> To summarize my view:
>>> >>
>>> >> 1) We have a flood of PEP8 PRs based on master, many of which have been
>>> >> merged, some by myself--so I have no objection to this aspect of the
>>> >> situation, though I would have preferred a slower pace, a garden hose
>>> >> rather than a fire hose.  I am happy to see continued merging of these
>>> >> PRs into master.
>>> >>
>>> >> 2) We are also trying to stabilize v1.2.x, getting in the last few bug
>>> >> fixes and doc updates, so we can get a release out, with a high
>>> >> probability that it will be solid.
>>> >>
>>> >> 3) The potential disagreement is over whether the PEP8 changes should
>>> >> be
>>> >> cherry-picked into v1.2.x, or simply left in master.  I favor the
>>> >> latter
>>> >> course.  First, because massive code churn shortly before a release
>>> >> seems unwise.  Second, because I think we should stick to the strategy
>>> >> we started with, in which an effort is made to choose the most
>>> >> appropriate target for each PR, frequently merge the maintenance branch
>>> >> into master, and reserve cherry-picking for occasional corrections.
>>> >>
>>> >> 4) The PEP8 changes will cause some merge problems no matter what we
>>> >> do;
>>> >> but I think that they can be minimal and manageable if we leave PEP8
>>> >> out
>>> >> of v1.2.x, and decide that once it is released, v1.2.x will be changed
>>> >> only if critical bugs are found, requiring a v1.2.1 release. This also
>>> >> assumes that we have only a few changes left to be made in v1.2.x
>>> >> before
>>> >> a final rc and a release.
>>> >>
>>> >> Therefore I recommend that the PEP8 changes that have already been
>>> >> cherry-picked into v1.2.x be removed from v1.2.x, and that the v1.2.x
>>> >> milestone be removed from all PEP8 changes.
>>> >>
>>> >> If some of the PEP8 commits include genuine bug-fixes that need to be
>>> >> in
>>> >> v1.2.x, then these fixes should be made via PRs directly against
>>> >> v1.2.x.
>>> >>
>>> >> Agreement?  Disagreement?  Discussion?  Related aspects of strategy?
>>> >>
>>> >> Eric
>>> >
>>> > I'm happy with whatever is decided. I'd rather not have merge
>>> > conflicts, but if PEP8 is seen as a high-risk merge then I'm happy to
>>> > not cherry-pick them into 1.2.x.
>>> >
>>> > If it is decided that we are to revert all the PEP8 changes in 1.2.x,
>>> > what should be done about PEP8 changes that were merged into master
>>> > before the v1.2.x branch was created?
>>> >
>>>
>>> Damon,
>>>
>>> As I said, I would not advocate trying to back out everything, and maybe
>>> not any of what is already in 1.2.x, or maybe just the most recent
>>> bunch.  Anticipating that Mike D. might want to make a decision tomorrow
>>> (or today from your timezone), perhaps it would be helpful if you could
>>> make an approximate map of which PEP8 commits were cherry-picked to
>>> 1.2.x, and how recently?  I have been trying to figure this out with
>>> qgit and git log with various options, but it makes my head spin.
>>
>>
>> List of commits that were cherry-picked recently (names only, but I can do
>> the commit id as well):
>>
>> PEP8 fixes on blocking_input.py
>> PEP8 fixes on blocking_input (patch n°2)
>> PEP_ fixes on cbook.py
>> PEP8 fixes 2. => 2.0
>> PEP8 fixes on tight_bbox.py
>> PEP8 fixes on tight_layout.py
>> PEP8 fixes - break points and identation
>> PEP8 fixes on type1font.py
>> PEP8 fixes - small backslashes and breaks fixes
>> PEP8 fixes on transforms.py
>> FIX - travis-ci is failing
>> Fix typo in transforms.py
>> PEP8 fixes on scale.py
>> PEP8 fixes on legend.py
>> PEP8 fixes on ticker.py
>> PEP8 fixes on streamplot.py
>> PEP8 fixes on stackplot.py
>> PEP8 fixes on hatch.py
>> PEP8 fixes on table.py
>
> Thanks Nelle.
>
> Eric, is the list Nelle has provided what you were expecting?
>
> --
> Damon McDougall
> http://www.damon-is-a-geek.com
> B2.39
> Mathematics Institute
> University of Warwick
> Coventry
> West Midlands
> CV4 7AL
> United Kingdom
>
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Re: strategy for 1.2.x, master, PEP8 changes

Eric Firing
In reply to this post by Michael Droettboom-3
On 2012/10/15 5:50 AM, Michael Droettboom wrote:

> Sorry to be jumping in on this late -- I didn't have a chance to catch
> up with this over the weekend.
>
> I think I generally side with Eric here -- the rc candidate cycle is
> intended to be quite conservative.  Nelle's pull requests are very
> welcome improvements, but they are also quite large and I am concerned
> about breakage slipping through the cracks.  To the extent that Nelle is
> finding undefined variable bugs etc. with her tool, I think we should
> probably try and fix those -- I know we've been doing that already and
> that's great.
>
> I think we should take the 1.2.x milestone off of all of the PEP8
> changes and keep all of them on master going forward.  Yes, the merging
> may be difficult while we are still in maintaining 1.2.x, but I think
> that's trivial compared to all of the additional testing and push back
> of the 1.2.0 release that this is currently causing.
>
> As for backing out things that were already cherry-picked -- that's a
> tough call.  I don't want to exacerbate the situation by causing further
> risk.  Maybe we just back out everything since the rc2?

It looks like that would itself cause a huge amount of additional churn,
and more risk than leaving things as they are.  At this point I suggest
leaving everything in that is presently in, try to get in the last few
bug fixes and tweaks, tag an rc3, and then target a release date,
somewhere in in the 2-4 weeks hence range.  In the meantime, PEP8 PRs
can be completed on master, after which feature enhancements can proceed
on master.

Eric

>
> Mike
>
> On 10/15/2012 12:10 AM, Eric Firing wrote:
>> On 2012/10/14 12:44 PM, Damon McDougall wrote:
>>> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Eric Firing <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> All,
>>>>
>>>> I think we are in a messy situation, and we need to reach some agreement
>>>> as to how to proceed.  This has been discussed a bit in this thread:
>>>>
>>>> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=507AFDC6.8000801%40hawaii.edu&forum_name=matplotlib-devel
>>>>
>>>> The name of that thread did not reflect the importance of the discussion
>>>> it prompted, hence the present message.
>>>>
>>>> To summarize my view:
>>>>
>>>> 1) We have a flood of PEP8 PRs based on master, many of which have been
>>>> merged, some by myself--so I have no objection to this aspect of the
>>>> situation, though I would have preferred a slower pace, a garden hose
>>>> rather than a fire hose.  I am happy to see continued merging of these
>>>> PRs into master.
>>>>
>>>> 2) We are also trying to stabilize v1.2.x, getting in the last few bug
>>>> fixes and doc updates, so we can get a release out, with a high
>>>> probability that it will be solid.
>>>>
>>>> 3) The potential disagreement is over whether the PEP8 changes should be
>>>> cherry-picked into v1.2.x, or simply left in master.  I favor the latter
>>>> course.  First, because massive code churn shortly before a release
>>>> seems unwise.  Second, because I think we should stick to the strategy
>>>> we started with, in which an effort is made to choose the most
>>>> appropriate target for each PR, frequently merge the maintenance branch
>>>> into master, and reserve cherry-picking for occasional corrections.
>>>>
>>>> 4) The PEP8 changes will cause some merge problems no matter what we do;
>>>> but I think that they can be minimal and manageable if we leave PEP8 out
>>>> of v1.2.x, and decide that once it is released, v1.2.x will be changed
>>>> only if critical bugs are found, requiring a v1.2.1 release. This also
>>>> assumes that we have only a few changes left to be made in v1.2.x before
>>>> a final rc and a release.
>>>>
>>>> Therefore I recommend that the PEP8 changes that have already been
>>>> cherry-picked into v1.2.x be removed from v1.2.x, and that the v1.2.x
>>>> milestone be removed from all PEP8 changes.
>>>>
>>>> If some of the PEP8 commits include genuine bug-fixes that need to be in
>>>> v1.2.x, then these fixes should be made via PRs directly against v1.2.x.
>>>>
>>>> Agreement?  Disagreement?  Discussion?  Related aspects of strategy?
>>>>
>>>> Eric
>>> I'm happy with whatever is decided. I'd rather not have merge
>>> conflicts, but if PEP8 is seen as a high-risk merge then I'm happy to
>>> not cherry-pick them into 1.2.x.
>>>
>>> If it is decided that we are to revert all the PEP8 changes in 1.2.x,
>>> what should be done about PEP8 changes that were merged into master
>>> before the v1.2.x branch was created?
>>>
>> Damon,
>>
>> As I said, I would not advocate trying to back out everything, and maybe
>> not any of what is already in 1.2.x, or maybe just the most recent
>> bunch.  Anticipating that Mike D. might want to make a decision tomorrow
>> (or today from your timezone), perhaps it would be helpful if you could
>> make an approximate map of which PEP8 commits were cherry-picked to
>> 1.2.x, and how recently?  I have been trying to figure this out with
>> qgit and git log with various options, but it makes my head spin.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Eric
>>
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Re: strategy for 1.2.x, master, PEP8 changes

Michael Droettboom-3
On 10/15/2012 12:52 PM, Eric Firing wrote:

> On 2012/10/15 5:50 AM, Michael Droettboom wrote:
>> Sorry to be jumping in on this late -- I didn't have a chance to catch
>> up with this over the weekend.
>>
>> I think I generally side with Eric here -- the rc candidate cycle is
>> intended to be quite conservative.  Nelle's pull requests are very
>> welcome improvements, but they are also quite large and I am concerned
>> about breakage slipping through the cracks.  To the extent that Nelle is
>> finding undefined variable bugs etc. with her tool, I think we should
>> probably try and fix those -- I know we've been doing that already and
>> that's great.
>>
>> I think we should take the 1.2.x milestone off of all of the PEP8
>> changes and keep all of them on master going forward.  Yes, the merging
>> may be difficult while we are still in maintaining 1.2.x, but I think
>> that's trivial compared to all of the additional testing and push back
>> of the 1.2.0 release that this is currently causing.
>>
>> As for backing out things that were already cherry-picked -- that's a
>> tough call.  I don't want to exacerbate the situation by causing further
>> risk.  Maybe we just back out everything since the rc2?
> It looks like that would itself cause a huge amount of additional churn,
> and more risk than leaving things as they are.  At this point I suggest
> leaving everything in that is presently in, try to get in the last few
> bug fixes and tweaks, tag an rc3, and then target a release date,
> somewhere in in the 2-4 weeks hence range.  In the meantime, PEP8 PRs
> can be completed on master, after which feature enhancements can proceed
> on master.

Yeah -- having just looked back at all of the cherry-picks at issue,
that's where I've come down as well.  Let's leave them in, but not put
any further PEP8-only fixes on 1.2.x.  I'll remove the 1.2.x issue
labels on the few PRs in progress.

I also think it's not the end of the world if additional feature
enhancements go on in master in the meantime.  Any merge conflicts with
the PEP8 work will be noted by git and we can address them as they come.

Any strong objections to this?

Mike

>
> Eric
>
>> Mike
>>
>> On 10/15/2012 12:10 AM, Eric Firing wrote:
>>> On 2012/10/14 12:44 PM, Damon McDougall wrote:
>>>> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Eric Firing <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> All,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we are in a messy situation, and we need to reach some agreement
>>>>> as to how to proceed.  This has been discussed a bit in this thread:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=507AFDC6.8000801%40hawaii.edu&forum_name=matplotlib-devel
>>>>>
>>>>> The name of that thread did not reflect the importance of the discussion
>>>>> it prompted, hence the present message.
>>>>>
>>>>> To summarize my view:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) We have a flood of PEP8 PRs based on master, many of which have been
>>>>> merged, some by myself--so I have no objection to this aspect of the
>>>>> situation, though I would have preferred a slower pace, a garden hose
>>>>> rather than a fire hose.  I am happy to see continued merging of these
>>>>> PRs into master.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) We are also trying to stabilize v1.2.x, getting in the last few bug
>>>>> fixes and doc updates, so we can get a release out, with a high
>>>>> probability that it will be solid.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3) The potential disagreement is over whether the PEP8 changes should be
>>>>> cherry-picked into v1.2.x, or simply left in master.  I favor the latter
>>>>> course.  First, because massive code churn shortly before a release
>>>>> seems unwise.  Second, because I think we should stick to the strategy
>>>>> we started with, in which an effort is made to choose the most
>>>>> appropriate target for each PR, frequently merge the maintenance branch
>>>>> into master, and reserve cherry-picking for occasional corrections.
>>>>>
>>>>> 4) The PEP8 changes will cause some merge problems no matter what we do;
>>>>> but I think that they can be minimal and manageable if we leave PEP8 out
>>>>> of v1.2.x, and decide that once it is released, v1.2.x will be changed
>>>>> only if critical bugs are found, requiring a v1.2.1 release. This also
>>>>> assumes that we have only a few changes left to be made in v1.2.x before
>>>>> a final rc and a release.
>>>>>
>>>>> Therefore I recommend that the PEP8 changes that have already been
>>>>> cherry-picked into v1.2.x be removed from v1.2.x, and that the v1.2.x
>>>>> milestone be removed from all PEP8 changes.
>>>>>
>>>>> If some of the PEP8 commits include genuine bug-fixes that need to be in
>>>>> v1.2.x, then these fixes should be made via PRs directly against v1.2.x.
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreement?  Disagreement?  Discussion?  Related aspects of strategy?
>>>>>
>>>>> Eric
>>>> I'm happy with whatever is decided. I'd rather not have merge
>>>> conflicts, but if PEP8 is seen as a high-risk merge then I'm happy to
>>>> not cherry-pick them into 1.2.x.
>>>>
>>>> If it is decided that we are to revert all the PEP8 changes in 1.2.x,
>>>> what should be done about PEP8 changes that were merged into master
>>>> before the v1.2.x branch was created?
>>>>
>>> Damon,
>>>
>>> As I said, I would not advocate trying to back out everything, and maybe
>>> not any of what is already in 1.2.x, or maybe just the most recent
>>> bunch.  Anticipating that Mike D. might want to make a decision tomorrow
>>> (or today from your timezone), perhaps it would be helpful if you could
>>> make an approximate map of which PEP8 commits were cherry-picked to
>>> 1.2.x, and how recently?  I have been trying to figure this out with
>>> qgit and git log with various options, but it makes my head spin.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: strategy for 1.2.x, master, PEP8 changes

Phil Elson-2
> In the meantime, PEP8 PRs can be completed on master, after which feature enhancements can proceed on master.

I think it would be helpful to hold fire on the PEP8 changes until we have our rc3 and have merged it back onto master for (hopefully) the last time. That way, we wont have to deal with the conflicts that are inevitable when merging v1.2.x back to master.

> Any merge conflicts with the PEP8 work will be noted by git and we can address them as they come.

That is another approach which will work, assuming the master is fairly up-to-date with v1.2.x now.


> Any strong objections to this?

Nope. Sounds like a good plan.





> In short, provided we can agree a future matplotlib version schedule, I agree with Eric.

Mike, Ben, Eric & others, there is a new thread relating to scheduling of releases, it is my opinion that it would be really beneficial to have a planned release date for v1.3 (and maybe even v1.4/v2.0) that we all agree on.

Phil






On 15 October 2012 17:59, Michael Droettboom <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 10/15/2012 12:52 PM, Eric Firing wrote:
> On 2012/10/15 5:50 AM, Michael Droettboom wrote:
>> Sorry to be jumping in on this late -- I didn't have a chance to catch
>> up with this over the weekend.
>>
>> I think I generally side with Eric here -- the rc candidate cycle is
>> intended to be quite conservative.  Nelle's pull requests are very
>> welcome improvements, but they are also quite large and I am concerned
>> about breakage slipping through the cracks.  To the extent that Nelle is
>> finding undefined variable bugs etc. with her tool, I think we should
>> probably try and fix those -- I know we've been doing that already and
>> that's great.
>>
>> I think we should take the 1.2.x milestone off of all of the PEP8
>> changes and keep all of them on master going forward.  Yes, the merging
>> may be difficult while we are still in maintaining 1.2.x, but I think
>> that's trivial compared to all of the additional testing and push back
>> of the 1.2.0 release that this is currently causing.
>>
>> As for backing out things that were already cherry-picked -- that's a
>> tough call.  I don't want to exacerbate the situation by causing further
>> risk.  Maybe we just back out everything since the rc2?
> It looks like that would itself cause a huge amount of additional churn,
> and more risk than leaving things as they are.  At this point I suggest
> leaving everything in that is presently in, try to get in the last few
> bug fixes and tweaks, tag an rc3, and then target a release date,
> somewhere in in the 2-4 weeks hence range.  In the meantime, PEP8 PRs
> can be completed on master, after which feature enhancements can proceed
> on master.

Yeah -- having just looked back at all of the cherry-picks at issue,
that's where I've come down as well.  Let's leave them in, but not put
any further PEP8-only fixes on 1.2.x.  I'll remove the 1.2.x issue
labels on the few PRs in progress.

I also think it's not the end of the world if additional feature
enhancements go on in master in the meantime.  Any merge conflicts with
the PEP8 work will be noted by git and we can address them as they come.

Any strong objections to this?

Mike

>
> Eric
>
>> Mike
>>
>> On 10/15/2012 12:10 AM, Eric Firing wrote:
>>> On 2012/10/14 12:44 PM, Damon McDougall wrote:
>>>> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Eric Firing <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> All,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we are in a messy situation, and we need to reach some agreement
>>>>> as to how to proceed.  This has been discussed a bit in this thread:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=507AFDC6.8000801%40hawaii.edu&forum_name=matplotlib-devel
>>>>>
>>>>> The name of that thread did not reflect the importance of the discussion
>>>>> it prompted, hence the present message.
>>>>>
>>>>> To summarize my view:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) We have a flood of PEP8 PRs based on master, many of which have been
>>>>> merged, some by myself--so I have no objection to this aspect of the
>>>>> situation, though I would have preferred a slower pace, a garden hose
>>>>> rather than a fire hose.  I am happy to see continued merging of these
>>>>> PRs into master.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) We are also trying to stabilize v1.2.x, getting in the last few bug
>>>>> fixes and doc updates, so we can get a release out, with a high
>>>>> probability that it will be solid.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3) The potential disagreement is over whether the PEP8 changes should be
>>>>> cherry-picked into v1.2.x, or simply left in master.  I favor the latter
>>>>> course.  First, because massive code churn shortly before a release
>>>>> seems unwise.  Second, because I think we should stick to the strategy
>>>>> we started with, in which an effort is made to choose the most
>>>>> appropriate target for each PR, frequently merge the maintenance branch
>>>>> into master, and reserve cherry-picking for occasional corrections.
>>>>>
>>>>> 4) The PEP8 changes will cause some merge problems no matter what we do;
>>>>> but I think that they can be minimal and manageable if we leave PEP8 out
>>>>> of v1.2.x, and decide that once it is released, v1.2.x will be changed
>>>>> only if critical bugs are found, requiring a v1.2.1 release. This also
>>>>> assumes that we have only a few changes left to be made in v1.2.x before
>>>>> a final rc and a release.
>>>>>
>>>>> Therefore I recommend that the PEP8 changes that have already been
>>>>> cherry-picked into v1.2.x be removed from v1.2.x, and that the v1.2.x
>>>>> milestone be removed from all PEP8 changes.
>>>>>
>>>>> If some of the PEP8 commits include genuine bug-fixes that need to be in
>>>>> v1.2.x, then these fixes should be made via PRs directly against v1.2.x.
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreement?  Disagreement?  Discussion?  Related aspects of strategy?
>>>>>
>>>>> Eric
>>>> I'm happy with whatever is decided. I'd rather not have merge
>>>> conflicts, but if PEP8 is seen as a high-risk merge then I'm happy to
>>>> not cherry-pick them into 1.2.x.
>>>>
>>>> If it is decided that we are to revert all the PEP8 changes in 1.2.x,
>>>> what should be done about PEP8 changes that were merged into master
>>>> before the v1.2.x branch was created?
>>>>
>>> Damon,
>>>
>>> As I said, I would not advocate trying to back out everything, and maybe
>>> not any of what is already in 1.2.x, or maybe just the most recent
>>> bunch.  Anticipating that Mike D. might want to make a decision tomorrow
>>> (or today from your timezone), perhaps it would be helpful if you could
>>> make an approximate map of which PEP8 commits were cherry-picked to
>>> 1.2.x, and how recently?  I have been trying to figure this out with
>>> qgit and git log with various options, but it makes my head spin.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
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